tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post1161979014791881495..comments2024-03-21T08:21:38.675+00:00Comments on mending things: Restoring a Pioneer PL-12D TurntableMr Iveshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comBlogger285125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-63674192522558434982023-05-20T11:54:11.833+01:002023-05-20T11:54:11.833+01:00BTW I'm jonathan ives and I'm on gmailBTW I'm jonathan ives and I'm on gmailMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-78207045076818578862023-05-20T11:52:51.622+01:002023-05-20T11:52:51.622+01:00Thanks Buster. Most interesting. Do you find that ...Thanks Buster. Most interesting. Do you find that with a double decoupled motor you get increased wow ? Mr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-64272539269658816982023-05-20T11:19:12.416+01:002023-05-20T11:19:12.416+01:00I ended up mounting the motor on a base that I fab...I ended up mounting the motor on a base that I fabricated out of sheet ali.<br />That base is suspended on rubber bushes, fixed in turn onto the wooden plinth.<br />(ie, not on the deck)<br />so the motor vibrations have a double buffer to pass before getting into the pickup arm.<br />more importantly, and vibrations of the motor are coupled into the mass of the plinth, which severely damps out vibrations.<br />When i place the stylus on the vinyl, there is absolutely zero motor noise... Nada. :-)<br />My PL12 deck now is far quieter now than it was when it was new!<br /><br />if you want photos, send me your email and i will oblige.<br />Buster bloodvesselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304273922043580703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-68788928932056523322023-05-18T10:00:03.426+01:002023-05-18T10:00:03.426+01:00I am wondering as well. I could trace my steps bac...I am wondering as well. I could trace my steps back, but as I am no tech savvy, it somewhat scares me, if the hum comes back, and I cannot get rid of It again. :-D<br /><br />Just to clarify - the hum might have gotten a little bit muted, when I removed the shipping screws, but not enough to notice. <br /><br />The springs seem fine. The deck is kinda wobbly, but not more than the most other spring suspended decks, I have owned. But yes, it is crazy for how long time the energy in the springs has been trapped. :-)<br /><br />Cheers Peterdhad06https://www.blogger.com/profile/00732934427714842487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-35056075530620818502023-05-17T19:07:36.838+01:002023-05-17T19:07:36.838+01:00Thank you dhad06, that's very interesting. I w...Thank you dhad06, that's very interesting. I wonder what was causing the hum. If the top plate is coupled to the plinth by the action of the shipping screws, perhaps the whole box was acting like the sound box on a guitar and causing resonance ?<br /><br />Anyway I'm very glad that you are OK. Were the springs OK after 40 years of imprisonment ?Mr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-21489671410175359162023-05-17T18:40:01.994+01:002023-05-17T18:40:01.994+01:00Thx for the very competent guide.
I've been r...Thx for the very competent guide.<br /><br />I've been restoring a PL12 for my son-in-law, and I was having quite a lot of motorhum, and being on a tight budget (he's studying), new parts weren't an option. So first I tried boiling the bushes in a viscous mix of soap and water to soften them up (in Denmark it is called brown soap and in Sweden green soap - maybe the English term is soft soap?) When I pulled them from the deck, I thought they were soft, but it couldn't harm. It didn't help either. <br /><br />I then moved on to the springs, and as you can imagine the foam was drizzling and almost gone. There were no rubber washers. Funny fact - the guy who had the deck for some 40 years, never removed the red "shipping" screws :-D, so the foam was both flat and drizzling. I made new foam cylinders and new rubber washers with a dinking die and reassembled. <br /><br />Tada, the hum is now a thing of the past!<br /><br />So thank you again!dhad06https://www.blogger.com/profile/00732934427714842487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-73514111307741075812023-03-05T00:40:14.116+00:002023-03-05T00:40:14.116+00:00many thanks lamongne for your kind words and deta...many thanks lamongne for your kind words and detailed description. Glad it's working well, and thank you for sharing your journey <br />Mr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-76777338491385195092023-03-04T18:41:08.834+00:002023-03-04T18:41:08.834+00:00Dear Mr. Ives,
Thank you very much for those deta...Dear Mr. Ives,<br /><br />Thank you very much for those detailed posts about your PL-12D maintenance. It's been very helpful in my case so I want to share a bit about my turntable issues here so it might help others troubleshoot their own:<br /><br />The PL-12D we got hasn't been in use for a couple of decades. When we first tried it, the RPM was way too slow and the whole deck was shaking. First off, we changed the strap. The speed problem seemed fixed, but the deck shaking was still occuring. The strap wasn't touching the 33/45 speed arm and the platter seemed fine on its own.<br /><br />Then, I tried to oil the motor (the only oil type I had, which seemed ok according to my research on forums, was some white mineral oil that I use for an electric clipper). After ~6 drops, the platter was turning much smoother. But after a while, the deck shaking got back to it. It seemed like I needed to let the turntable roll for about 15mins so it would warm up and stop shaking. It was annoying, but I wasn't so confident about opening up de turntable to do a more complete service, so we used it as is for some time. <br /><br />Until, lately, when I warmed up the thing again to stop the shaking, I let it roll for a couple hours (just forgot about it). When I got back to it, the RPM was off tracks and the shaking was even more persistent. After some more research, I found that it must have been some old dirt that warmed up in the motor bearings and caused the locking of it all. <br /><br />Being in this deadend, I had no other choice to pull a full(er) service on our PL-12D. So I followed steps on how to open everything up, mostly with your post here. I replaced the shocks foam which made the whole thing much more stable. <br /><br />I did disassemble the motor and bearings, but, as I don't have any soldering tools, I kept every cables in place while doing so (and of course, the AC plug wasn't connected during the whole process). A good soldering station is quite expensive, so I thought I would try without and it wasn't that big of a deal in my case. I had to be extra careful not to twist those short wiring cables, but as there is some wood support on the left side, I could let the motor sit there while I was working on it. It's not ideal, but for someone who doesn't have the necessary tools, it might be a good alternative. <br /><br />So, having the two bearings apart, I cleaned them with 99% isopropyl alcohol and cotton buds. I followed pretty much your cleaning procedure at this point. I didn't have any grease so that's the only thing I couldn't do for the lower bearing (Lucky me that my lower bearing has a little hole that I can use to oil it once mounted!). The one thing that I wasn't so sure about was the position of the motor spindle. I managed to lock it with a gap around 1mm over the upper bearing frame. When everything was in place, it seemed like the strap was totally in the middle of the speed arm bracket! <br /><br />And now... <b>Everything is going great!</b> The RPM is steady at the right speeds. No shaking, no trouble. The motor clean up and foams replacement did the trick and wasn't that big of a deal. We just have to follow your steps, take our time, everything should be fine.<br /><br />That's about it. I've been very grateful for all the good infos I found here. I wanted to share a bit so some people might be encouraged to do the necessary. Going to fire it up again right now. Thanks again and keep it up!lamongnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17738396863715867626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-24886654155085098212022-03-22T15:01:23.621+00:002022-03-22T15:01:23.621+00:00Aaron, That is VERY interesting! I had not though...Aaron, That is VERY interesting! I had not thought about measuring the actual diameter of the wire used for the springs. Thanks, DirkDRSipeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17692915403959602997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-61785437886876985072022-03-19T18:45:26.566+00:002022-03-19T18:45:26.566+00:00The Pioneer PL-12D does indeed use 3 different spr...The Pioneer PL-12D does indeed use 3 different spring rates spread across the 4 springs.<br />Left Rear spring is .064" dia. wire, Left Front is the same size. Right Rear is .060" and Right Front is .048". The right front was much shorter than the other's. I just picked this TT up and it is pristine in and out but the right front of the plinth was much lower and bottomed out at the slightest touch. That's why I took it apart. I found no shim washers in any of the cavities. I will shim it level and give her a go.<br />Sincerely,<br />Aaron ShumakerAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07085418392574835930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-64241123699504490732021-03-08T15:42:28.252+00:002021-03-08T15:42:28.252+00:00Glad it's sorted, I've certainly done thin...Glad it's sorted, I've certainly done things where I though 'Doh', for example I was trying to balance the arm by just turning the black plastic ring , not the actual weight.<br /><br />plus we now know how to play all those LP's with backward messages :)<br /><br />Mr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-48204899246794864752021-03-08T15:32:03.295+00:002021-03-08T15:32:03.295+00:00Stator was upside down... Oops. It's all good ...Stator was upside down... Oops. It's all good now! Played it this morning and it sounds great! Really appreciate the quick response and knowledge. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056746943207099474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-57033354871327295432021-03-08T07:39:22.766+00:002021-03-08T07:39:22.766+00:00Hi eWalsh,
That's interesting. The only two t...Hi eWalsh,<br /><br />That's interesting. The only two things I can think of is either the stator section is upside down or the phase capacitor has failed. Assuming the wires are unchanged<br /><br />For the stator to be upside down, the wires would emerge from the top of the motor not underneath ?<br /><br />The phase capacitor determines which way the motor turns, its the red orange blob near the voltage selector switch on some models or directly soldered across two tags on others. I cannot find a circuit diagram in the Pioneer service guide but I *believe* (please check) its a 0.047uF (47nF) 275Vac (X2 Class) capacitor and should be easy to source a replacementMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-12722480826691650592021-03-08T01:23:35.546+00:002021-03-08T01:23:35.546+00:00Hey Mr. Ives! Great resource!
Just got an old PL-...Hey Mr. Ives! Great resource!<br /><br />Just got an old PL-12D and it wasn't working. I took it apart, and cleaned it. Also took the motor apart and lubricated it. Put it all back together and it worked, except the motor runs backwards. The wiring is all correct. Any idea? eWalshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10630730747912074248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-26075471105061546182020-12-23T08:22:15.140+00:002020-12-23T08:22:15.140+00:00Hi Buster, thanks for your comment. That's int...Hi Buster, thanks for your comment. That's interesting, so you have the motor mounted to the base of the plinth , so supported from below ? There is a facebook group dedicated to the PL12D https://www.facebook.com/groups/1800061146950818, it would be great to see how you have done thisMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-33884939584504661922020-12-23T01:18:16.989+00:002020-12-23T01:18:16.989+00:00I revamped my pl12d.
I removed the motor from the ...I revamped my pl12d.<br />I removed the motor from the deck suspension, and made a new mounting bracket and fixed on rubber grommets this to the bottom of the plinth.<br />Now there is no motor noise at all. I treat to a new sure m75ed, and the deck has never performed so well. No hum, no rumble, no buzz. 👍<br /><br />Buster bloodvesselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304273922043580703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-66699856887692123302020-12-22T17:41:00.303+00:002020-12-22T17:41:00.303+00:00Thanks Richard for your kind words,
was that the ...Thanks Richard for your kind words,<br /><br />was that the vertical arm bearings too ? I've not had the courage to tweak those. Thanks for the suggestion about the base.I think it's important to ensure enough ventilation underneath as the motor gets very hot the standard base has a grille over a circular hole beneath the motor. Either similar or some drilled holes I think would be advisable to allow convection. There is an active facebook group dedicated to the PL12 deck, and recently there has been some discussion about the potential benefits to damping and weighting the platter. I've not tried it, but it's another line of thoughtMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-45852372317736542912020-12-22T17:30:18.265+00:002020-12-22T17:30:18.265+00:00very very, helpful article ,as i had one of these ...very very, helpful article ,as i had one of these gathering dust i decided to carry out all of your servicing and found it gave very good results when playing . I also then went further by very carefully fine tuned the arm bearings and making a very solid mahogany base that compered to a linn sondeck base .This i think was by far the biggest improvement by far and as soon as it was played the clarity and bass really stood out. Regards RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-41653249012344664312020-06-20T01:00:11.541+01:002020-06-20T01:00:11.541+01:00Yep, the foam definitely needs replacing, so that,...Yep, the foam definitely needs replacing, so that, along with a cabinet for it all to sit on, is on the list of things to be done.<br />The motor mounts looked okay, and I haven't noticed a hum as yet, but will certainly keep in mind.<br />Cheers,<br />Scott Scottjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08983759544259861890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-31164857652686501952020-06-19T08:58:13.015+01:002020-06-19T08:58:13.015+01:00Hi Scott, glad the blog was useful and thank you f...Hi Scott, glad the blog was useful and thank you for sharing your wonderful story, many here are beloved decks with a history. it's probably a good idea to replace the foam in the springs at some point as this seems to always have either crumbled or ceased to work as a "shock absorber". Now you've had the "bonnet open" it should be easy. The 3rd thing is the motor mounts, a slightly trickier job, and only needs doing if you get any slight hum when a record is playing.<br /><br />Well done, thank you and keep 'em spinningMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-87104286335740895902020-06-19T02:04:44.453+01:002020-06-19T02:04:44.453+01:00Hello Mr Ives,
No question from me, just a thank y...Hello Mr Ives,<br />No question from me, just a thank you.<br />Way back in 1975 my father purchased a Pioneer PL-12E turntable, which he, and I, used intermittently over the next 15 – 20 years.<br />It somehow ended up at my place some 20 years ago, after my parents had yet another house move. It has, since then, been sitting on the top shelf in the wardrobe, along with the amplifier, tape deck, and speakers, taking up much needed space.<br />The plan had always been for it all to be set up, but, lack of time / motivation, as well as not really knowing where it should go, kind of got in the way of actually doing something about it.<br />That was until a bit over a week ago, when it was all dusted off and I managed to work out which cable went where.<br />I had a vague recollection that the tape deck had an issue, and I duly discovered that that was in fact the case. I’m not terribly concerned about that, and perhaps at some point I may get the urge to see if something can be done about it.<br />As far as the turntable is concerned, I quickly discovered that it too had some issues.<br />Long story short, the belt, perhaps not surprisingly after all these years, needed replacing. This was done a few days later, and while it did result in the turntable actually turning, the actual turning speed was a problem.<br />As my wife said, it sounded like Jon Bon Jovi was stoned while he was singing Living on a Prayer.<br />Much Googling was then undertaken, along with a few more attempts at rectifying the problem, before I somehow ended up here.<br />Your explanations, along with the photos, made it all so easy, and I soon found myself peering under the deck of a 45 year old record player.<br />The shaft was duly removed, ball bearing found, and all moving parts; of which when I first started setting the whole thing up, I didn’t actually know that they should in fact move; were lubricated.<br />Everything was put back, fortunately with no pieces left over, and all of a sudden the platter, with belt yet to be attached, could almost spin on its own with not much more than a slight breeze.<br />With anticipation building, it was plugged back in.<br />And the result of my tinkering from your excellent instructions?<br />Jon Bon Jovi now sounds like he’s supposed to sound.<br />To say I’m happy is an understatement; I am absolutely rapt. It’s brought back a lot of memories, and Dad is now even looking forward to hearing his old record player again, that he hasn’t heard for well over 20 years.<br />So once again, thank you so much for your excellent blog!<br />Regards,<br />ScottScottjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08983759544259861890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-27273095403023826552020-01-22T07:34:50.957+00:002020-01-22T07:34:50.957+00:00Hi Kev, thanks for the the feedback.
Fluctuating ...Hi Kev, thanks for the the feedback.<br /><br />Fluctuating speed can be one of a number of things, but remember these decks are 40 years old and do need a bit of a service .<br />It could be :<br /><br />1) Main bearing dry or old lubricant going sticky<br /><br />2) Motor pulley loose or at the wrong height<br /><br />3) Motor pulley mounts hardened <br /><br />4) Motor bearings need oil<br /><br />5) Deck springs need foam replacing.<br /><br />So following the blog and performing the service will address all of these and is not especially hard to do. My first question is , if you slip the belt off the motor pulley and spin the platter by hand and leave it, it should spinn silently for several minutes until it finally stops. If its a few seconds, then the main bearing needs a clean and relubrication.<br /><br />It is possible that the motor has a problem. These can be purchased on ebay and replaced, but I'd exhaust the other options first><br /><br />There is also a facebook group dedicated to repairing PL12D, which you may find useful too<br /><br />So does the platter spin easily without the belt attached after a manula spinMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-77515759784439368832020-01-20T22:47:04.845+00:002020-01-20T22:47:04.845+00:00Hi Mr Ives,
Great blog! My PL 12D sometimes starts...Hi Mr Ives,<br />Great blog! My PL 12D sometimes starts having a fluctuating pitch, the music gets faster & slower, any suggestions? I tried changing the belt but it was the same.<br />Thanks KevAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05463896335669394194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-86479776652960657192019-11-25T13:59:14.999+00:002019-11-25T13:59:14.999+00:00Hi Patrickblue and thank you for your kind words, ...Hi Patrickblue and thank you for your kind words, yes the comments do get a bit confused, I never expected to have to manage so many :)<br /><br />I reckon either sewing machine oil or SAE 30, Turbine or gear box would all work well regardless. I think that modern engine oils should be avoided as they typically contain all kinds of additives designed for the high temperatures in an engine, rather than a comparatively slow moving turntable. The original PL12D user guide is not specific about the type of oil, the deck shipped with a small oil bottle intended for both the main and motor bearings, and I'm pretty sure it was sewing machine oil. <br /><br />For my range of turntables I have a bottle of SAE20W/50 motor oil, designed for vintage cars. Some decks I work on use sintered bearings and I prefer to avoid modern high performance oils for the reasons above, and also getting the oil out of the pores in the bearings would be harder .<br /><br />There is a recent follow up blog post on the "PL12D revisited" on the blog, you might find that interesting. It was written by Dirk Sipes , covers oils and also the choice of ball bearingMr Iveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965084993191032538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8000191682087974772.post-847338869760710432019-11-25T13:30:02.221+00:002019-11-25T13:30:02.221+00:00Hi Mr Ives
Firstly, well done on a brilliant blog....Hi Mr Ives<br />Firstly, well done on a brilliant blog.<br /><br />Can you tell me what oil you recommend for the centre spindle bearing. The reason I ask is because of a comment left by Rainer a few years back, where he (or she) says that sewing machine oil should not be used unless the bearing has extremely close tolerances (which he/she says the PL12D doesn't) and goes on to say that a sae30 oil or even a gear oil should be used. Then in a later comment Rainer states that his/her PL12D spindle has the closest tolerance he/she has ever come across.<br />I would agree with the second statement, and use sewing machine oil in my PL12D.<br />I didn't see a reply by you, but some of the earlier comments seem to have got out of sequence<br /><br />On another note, I've always thought the PL12D is somewhat underrated, being dismissed as entry level or budget, so when I removed my 3009 improved for maintenance from the Thorens it's fitted to, I thought I'd give the Shure V15 111 that normally lives in it a try in the Pioneer.<br />Now, according to perceived wisdom, this should not have worked at all, it being generally stated that the arm has too much mass for the cartridge, but there it is tracking perfectly at 1 gram, and sounding beautiful.<br />This is fitted with a Thacker elliptical stylus, which I believe is a Jico. <br /> Patrickbluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07760986436835445575noreply@blogger.com